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Mighty Sam McClain’s listing in the Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music gives The Phantom Tollbooth primary credit for bringing Mighty Sam McClain to the attention of the contemporary Christian music community, while further stating, “ . . . he is still much more acclaimed in the general market than in that little subculture.” It would make sense, then, for a fine interview with McClain to appear in the Crossroads Blues Society’s fall newsletter. An acclaimed artist whose five-decade spanning mainstream career includes fifteen years of drunken homelessness, McClain’s forthright language may shock some readers but the Tollbooth is very pleased to reprint this interview.

This interview was conducted the morning after Mr. McClain’s great performance on the main stage of the Mississippi Valley Blues Festival. 

Thompson: Thank you for taking some time to talk with me.

Mighty Sam McClain: Thank you for the interest. I apologize for my slow movement this morning. Really moving slow- I guess it's called life. I had a talk with God this morning. I’m not too content. I’ve got some questions for the Big Master this morning. And I don’t think I’m being very satisfied with the answers.

Thompson: Well, we have to have patience.

McClain: We’re not always satisfied with the answers God gives us.

Thompson: Sometimes God wants us to wait for the answers.

McClain: We don’t have much choice about that!! (laughter) That’s the part that got me a little slow this morning. I’m not surrendering too easy, fighting the battle but I’ll be all right.

Thompson: It didn’t look like you were fighting a battle last night. You gave an outstanding performance.

McClain: Thank you very much. I was somewhat enjoying myself. I wasn’t totally where I would like to be musically or spiritually. I’m always looking to take to a higher level. Maybe sometimes I expect too much from myself, my wife and everybody around me. But, overall, the performance was ok but I wasn’t really satisfied with it. I was thankful to be there. I’m trying to be thankful just to be alive. Sometimes I get very disgusted, frustrated with it. So it’s been tough. It’s just one of those times. You asked me how I’m feeling- have a seat!! (laughter) I’ll tell you how I’m feeling this morning! But I’m all right. God is good, God is faithful. His servant is just having a hard time this morning. (more laughter)

Thompson: We all have those days.

McClain: Amen! It’s all good. It will all come out good I trust that. But this business is so fickle. People are people. That’s what that song I wrote, “Hanging on the Cross,” is about. People are only human and that’s all they’ll ever be, I guess. And I guess I’m one of them, too. But it’s frustrating sometimes.

Thompson: I don’t think too many people are used to being at a blues festival and hearing the blues about Jesus on the cross.

McClain: I bet! (laughter) I know that’s right. That’s one of the questions right now. God, why have you chosen me for this? This is a tough one. People do not want to talk about Jesus. I can choose to do it. I tell people all the time, it wasn’t my choice. I didn’t choose God, God chose me. It’s not the way I planned it. Back when my career started, I had some other plans. I’m still in the surrendering process. I know it’s a shock. I can’t talk without talking about God. You walk into my room and the first thing out of my mouth is about God, whether it’s I’m questioning God, I’m happy about God. It’ still about God, because I know God is the ultimate. And I also know that he understands whatever it is I’m going through. It’s real small, real small in God’s universe. I understand that, so I know he’s going to forgive me and everything is going to be ok. And he understands when I get frustrated or angry, very uptight. God got angry, he got mad. That’s what I tell people. They try to put God and Jesus somewhere’s different and he’s right there. It’s real simple. The longer I live, the more simplified it’s getting. He heard it and he got pissed off. If you don’t think Jesus had the blues when they hung him on the cross, let somebody nail your ass to a piece of wood and see how that makes you feel. He picked me because I’m bold enough to say it. I’m not scared to say Jesus had the blues and you all better listen up! 

It’s not easy and it wasn’t promised to be easy. They killed him. I’m not dead yet, so I should be bouncing up and down. I do enjoy bringing this music to the people. I really do. I know that it is my mission; it’s my calling and where it’s needed. People are always asking the question, what it is I believe, so I get a chance to say what’s on my mind and in my heart. I’m trying to do the right thing. But the hardheaded rascal that I am, he smiles at me, come on Sam, get up, get up. I know that God has a great sense of humor. When you leave, I got to get on my knees and beg my wife for forgiveness. Apologize. I’ve been a little tough this morning. 

Thompson: We all have to do that with our wives once in a while.

McClain: And I just finished writing a song, too, called “Most of All.” It’s thanking her for believing in me, in the music, believing in God. When I got up this morning, I was scowling like a bull. Oh, wretched me! But she’s a wonderful lady, a forgiving lady, so I’m sure she’ll forgive me one more time. Life is good.

Thompson: Earlier in your career, from what I’ve been able to see, you didn’t write your material. Now, almost everything you do, you wrote. Where did the songwriting come from?

McClain: When I met Jesus. When I met Jesus, life became serious. The first thing that was overwhelming to me was that I was using and abusing so many people and wasn’t even aware of that fact, especially the ladies. It was a painful thing. God just showed up and said, these are my children and you cannot do this. That’s when I started asking for forgiveness. I realized that I had hurt people. So I guess I really finally had something to write about. I could feel what was going on in my life. I guess that’s what I write on now, my emotions. I can’t just get up and say I’m going to write a song. It’s got to move me, something’s got to be happening. I have to say that discovering God was the foundation for me, stopping and thinking and realizing that life is not a game, it’s for real. And I do have something to say now that I’ve discovered Jesus and Jesus discovered me. It’s real, it’s really real, God is real!! All of my friends thought I was a fuckin’ nut case! (more laughter) 

So I’ve been walking that mission ever since that day. I was going home to Louisiana, heading home to see my parents. My mother and stepfather were still living at the time. I left home before I was 13 years old because of my stepfather. He hit me a couple of times with a walking stick and a hammer. So I left; I was getting ready to kill this guy. And I really wanted him to be my father real bad. I really loved him. I saw my mom go through a couple men trying to find the right one. My momma had thirteen children between four different men. I’m in the middle; I’m five from the top. So I got a chance to witness a few things. This particular guy, I really wanted him to be the guy. Anyway, I headed back home in ’73 and this was the time I first met Jesus. I got home and my stepfather was laying in his bed dying. He was so peaceful.

And I got more love and appreciation from that man in those 5-10 minutes than I could ever have imagined. I couldn’t even imagine what it would have been like, the love I was seeking as opposed to the love I got in those few seconds. He was full of God. Those things, you write about that. I have a hard talking about that because people think you’re nuts when you tell them about the experience you had meeting God on the side of the road. That’s what I write about, the real things that happen, a special time for me. I might get sidetracked, so you may have to steer me back on track, because I get to talking about this stuff and it is very emotional. I don’t get the chance to talk deep, deep , deep on this most of the time because I don’t feel that anybody really wants to listen. It’s the story of my life. One day I hope to tell it in a book. It would take the right questions, the right situation to even bring this stuff up because it’s been buried for years. I haven’t had time to think, I’ve been busy surviving. I’ve been out here since I was 13 years old. It’s been interesting and I’m alive today to talk about it--eating out of garbage cans, selling my blood and my plasma just to get money to eat. It’s taken all that to make me who I am today. God, if I had known, I might have taken another direction, if you had given me a little hint. I might have tried to make a deal with you. Can we do it like this instead of like that? But it’s all good.

Thompson: And now you’re going to start your own label?

McClain: I’ve had this label for about five years. I’ve just been waiting for the right time. I’ve had a couple producers, one in particular, Don Schroeder, who produced my very first recording in 1966. It’s hard to talk about Don and not talk about that he was a crook. I try real hard though! I hadn’t seen Don in thirty years or so. I decided to cut “Sweet Dreams Again,” which is a song he took me to Muscle Shoals and recorded. I went there to record a song called “Georgia Pines” and a couple other things. Dan Penn and Spooner (Oldham), a couple of session musicians there, introduced us to “Sweet Dreams,” so we decided to cut it. And it went on the charts. So I’d been thinking about cutting this thing over for years. A few of my friends and people I’ve known have been going on saying you got to cut that tune again. So, last year, I’m cutting it and I go home and there’s a message on the machine. And it’s from Don Schroeder! I couldn’t believe it. The message said, ”Hey, I got this song, “Sweet Dreams (of You),” hey Sam, how you doing, it’s Papa Don.” And I ain’t heard this man’s voice in 30 years. There he is, I get back from cutting this song and his voice is on my machine. It’s almost eerie! I called my wife and said come here and listen, because she had never heard Papa Don’s voice. She had heard me talk about him over the years. And he’s saying, Sam, I want to produce you again, blah, blah, blah. It was two weeks before I called him back. It made me angry that he would call and act like everything was the same. I really prayed hard before calling him. I decided that I was going to be open to this. I am a child of God and I can forgive Don, because I truly love him. I just got hurt because he screwed me like he did and treated me like he did. So I called him up. And it was like walking into a time warp. He hadn’t changed - he started talking about the same stuff with the same attitude. Papa Don this, Papa Don that. You ought to tell that little record company of yours to bring me in and let me record you. He’s not asking me, how are you, what’s going on in your life? 

I couldn’t believe it. I got angry. And after the anger subsided, I realized that I had moved and this man hadn’t. I found the joy in the call. I found some peace. I really have grown and this guy sitting in the same place. He don’t even realize, he wouldn’t stop to listen, to say how are you doing. Finally, I had to scream at him to shut up! He started telling me how many good songs Jesus been giving him and he knew Jesus was going to send him a good singer and he knew I was it. He was just running. And I said, but Don, you must realize that Jesus stopped by here, too. He didn’t just stop by your house; he stopped over here, too. It was great to stop him. And I said, Don, I’m not in a hurry to do anything. I’ve got screwed so much in this business. And he says, I ain’t never screwed you!! I said, I didn’t say you screwed me. He just walked right into that one. He felt guilty. I trusted him with all my heart. I didn’t know anything about the business. At the time, I didn’t really care. I don’t hold him responsible for my ignorance and lack of enthusiasm for taking care of my own business. But that still doesn’t give him a reason to screw me, because I was ignorant. 

It’s funny. I produced this record on a guy, Weepin’ Willie, out of Boston. Willie’s about seventy-six years old. I produced it about two years ago. It was my first production and I had to teach Willie everything. He had to learn how to be a songwriter, how to become a member of ASCAMP. It was such a joy that I did that. I realized God was showing me that this is what Don should have done for me. It was a pleasure to help this guy and to see these royalty checks that I know he’s been getting. I know I helped his life. I take great pride in that. At the same time, that’s why I hold Don responsible for his end of it, even though I didn’t know. He still should have done the right thing. So Don called and another guy called, Thomas Ruf, of Ruf Records. And he came in with the attitude of, I like your integrity etc, etc but you need some more songs. I said, excuse me! All that combined was like the Devil himself was on my trail. Something’s going on. Don comes out of nowhere and here’s another man coming out of nowhere talking about how much he love me but now he tells me that my songs are shit. This ain’t nothin’ but the Devil on my ass! 

So, we just got back from Europe. When I was I was there, that’s when this came on me like a ton of bricks. My guitar player and I had just written this song called “One More Bridge to Cross.” I couldn’t figure out what it was about. I’m not going to die yet, so what’s this about? In Europe, it all came to me. It’s time to produce your next record, time to do it yourself. That’s going to the title of the CD. I didn’t have to be subjected to their thoughts and opinions, because they call themselves producers. That was the decision I made and it was a wonderful, wonderful feeling. It was like a peace came over me. 

That was the thing that forced me to realize that God and the Devil got on my ass. You better step it up cuz their on your trail! This coming to tell me that my music wasn’t happening was an insult. Especially since during the time he was telling me this crap, one of my songs that you may know, did very well on this television show, Ally McBeal. And just recently, they called again to use my song. This one of the popular television shows in the country and at the same time I got this guy telling me I don’t have any songs. I’m talking about songs that paid me over six figures worth of money. Big money, more money than I ever talked about in my life. So that’s what made up my mind. I’m going to do it myself and do it on my own label. My wife said to go for Mighty Music. We’ve already got the songs written. We’re working on them now and when we get off this tour, we go into the studio. I’m excited about that. And I know God sent you, I’m feeling better already. You’re taking me out of that funk I was in. 

I feel very good that we will have great success. I think it’s what God had intended all along. This used to be dreams of mine to one day see my name on a record. I used to look at James Brown’s records. You’d see James Brown production, written by James Brown, performed by JB, published by James Brown. And praise be to God, he’s let me live long enough to see it. I’m not rich but every little thing out here associated with Sam McClain, I‘m thankful to say I’ve as much control as I possibly can. I’m very proud of that. It wasn’t supposed to be. I was always told that I wouldn’t and I couldn’t and I shouldn’t even think about it!”

Thompson: On the way down here I was listening to Sweet Dreams (Sam’s recent Telarc release). I was really listening to the song “Living My Dreams.” I know something about your background and some of the stuff you’ve gone through, the tough times. I was really happy for you listening to that song because it sounds like you have found a good place.

McClain: Thank you, thank you. Yeah, it is pretty good and I’m living in a different place and I’m aware of it. I’m not rich. But a lot of things, I just think about it and pray about it. I have them. I’ve already achieved them. If I drop dead tomorrow, I shouldn’t be bitchin’ and moanin’ to God. I am living my dream. God has let me have a little bit of control in my life, freedom to choose and direct my career myself. I don’t have to let somebody walk in say they know what I need to do, just because they have money or they have the name, they have the clout to do that. I feel very honored because I have this opportunity to do it myself. And I am so ready for the challenge, I’m so ready!

And the music is so ready! I’ve been smart enough and wise enough to pay attention and pick the right people. I’m surrounded by a great, great team of people. I realize that and I know it was put together by God. I’m just part of the ride. I understand that. This is the best that it’s been for me physically, spiritually, musically - the whole trip.

Thompson: I had a couple more questions. One, you mentioned Dan Penn and Spooner Oldham (songwriters/musicians). That’s pretty special starting out with those kind of guys when you were cutting your first records. And I understand that you even had Eddie Hinton playing guitar?”

McClain: Yeah, and I didn’t have a clue who they were. I’m just now starting to get an appreciation for what was taking place then. I tell people right now, why didn’t somebody wake me up, why didn’t they just pinch me or something! I was playing places like the Apollo Theater. My very first day at the Apollo, I was late and got fined. Very first day! Had the biggest gig in my life, I couldn’t get there on time. That tells you where I was. But it was special. We cut “Sweet Dreams”(Sam’s original version-1966) at Fame, Rick Hall’s studio in Florence, Alabama. At that time Dan and Spooner, they were house staff, musicians, writers, etcetera. When we got finished with the song, somebody came in with a Billboard magazine and opened it up and there was this guy, low and behold, was from Alexandria, Louisiana, right up the road from Monroe and his name is McLain! He just spells it with one C I spell mine with two. He has “Sweet Dreams” already shooting up the charts! That knocked the wind right out of me. Plus he was a white man! This was 1966, so my career is over. That’s what came into my head. I haven’t even got started and it’s over! It was just so strange.

Anyway, we took off for Nashville with “Sweet Dreams,” Papa Don and I. He knew Buzz Cason and we went by Buzz’s studio. Buzz said, “Larry Uttal (head of Amy/Bell/Mala Records) is flying in and I’m going to the airport to pick him up, why don’t you guys hang around until I get back. Let him hear this track, I think he might like this.” Old Larry came in and he loved it. He let us do it in spite of Tommy (McLain) already having it on the charts. And there were places in the country that Tommy and I were getting played on the same station. He was #1 on FM and I was #1 on AM. It was strange how it all worked out.

It was very interesting being around those kind of people. Buzz these days has done very well. He’s writing some great, great songs. Dan Penn I haven’t heard from in years. Dan sent me some songs five years ago. That was the last I heard from him. I feel very fortunate to have been graced with songs from these gentlemen.

I was in Muscle Shoals when Martin Luther King Jr. got killed. The night he got killed I was recording. It was very eerie time. The whole world just stopped, very eerie. 

It’s amazing, man, how some of us are still here. I’ve been looking back and reflecting on so many people dead and I’m here. I was with Bobby “Blue” Bland the other day. Bobby knows that he’s been a big inspiration in my life. I’ve been trying to sing like this guy all my life. I just finally realized that I couldn’t sing like Bobby Bland. I told him, you know, I really thought that I sounded like you for a while. We laughed, we laughed big time! It was great to meet that man and have him be so gracious. 

The first time I saw Bobby I was thirteen years old. He was playing in Monroe, Louisiana. To go from there to having different guitar players he had over the years come and work with me. As I’m telling these stories, I’m looking at God and we how ended up at this moment, me and Bobby “Blue” Bland. I had Wayne Bennett worked in my band. Johnny Jones worked in my band. I had Clarence Holliman. And all of these people were marvelous guitar players. It was amazing to have these people come into my life. I didn’t know Bobby at this time at all but all of his guitar players were coming into my life. It was leading me up to this. Bobby’s bandleader, trumpet player Joe Hardin, married my first cousin. Since that’s taken place, that gave me a whole other toehold with Bobby. So I’ve been staying in touch with Bobby over the years through Joe. About a year ago, Bobby came to Portsmith, New Hampshire, which is about 30 minutes from my house. 

That was very spiritual to me. God brought Bobby Bland right to my doorstep! This man whom I admired, been admiring all my life, he brought him to me. And Bobby looked around and looked right at me and said, “Sam, come up here and shake my hand, let’s sing a little bit.” I couldn’t hardly move. I was just stuck in my tracks. I wasn’t expecting that. That was very humbling. I cried. I laughed. I prayed. He said, man, I’ve been hearing about you, Sam. I was shaking in my boots. It was quite an experience. And most of his stuff, I knew, because I’ve been singing Bobby’s stuff all my life. 

But he went on something and I couldn’t quite remember where to go, so what I did, I just made up something on the spot. I sung it to him and let him know how I felt about this moment and what he meant to me in my life. It just came -I don’t even know what I said. Right with the music I just sang and talked about him and being grateful. I look at that as certainly God-sent. All these years, I’ve watched that man since I was a child. That was heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy. 

Now, how did I get started on Bobby Bland? I went somewhere. How did I get on Bland? I’ll tell you, you got to stop me, man, cuz I’ll go from one thing to another. I know there was a question and Bland got in there. “

Thompson: You mentioned some of the people that have passed. When you look at Sam Cooke, Johnny Taylor, those guys started out singing gospel, singing spirituals and then went into the secular world, especially in the case of Sam Cooke. There was a big scandal with the gospel people that he would leave to start singing pop songs. In your career, you started out singing blues.

McClain: No, I started in gospel.

Thompson: But I mean your recordings. And now you’ve gone to singing your version of the spirituals.

McClain: Yeah, the only difference I would say in myself is that I’m refusing to be pigeonholed. I won’t let no church group, no gospel, no any kind of group pigeonhole me. Because I know Jesus sets you free. You don’t have to be a part of any secular group to be a believer in Jesus Christ. And you don’t have to sing no certain music no certain kind of way to be a believer in Jesus Christ. And so, that’s why I find myself standing alone out here. But I don’t put no name on this music. I just call it my music and I let everybody call it what they want. But I don’t consider it gospel or spiritual music, I consider it my music. 

I sing the blues like we all gone to hell. I have the blues - I had them when you all came through the door this morning. It heard last night the very first song, Jesus got the blues.

Jesus is very real, very human. I think that’s where most of us miss that. We find it too awesome to believe that you can be the brother, or the son, or the friend of the Creator. 

I’m trying to be part of that spiritually. I just want to stay connected. So I just do what I do. I don’t call it anything except that it’s my music. 

We have had churches, different radio stations and people go to shakin’, want to pray for me - get the Devil out of him, Jesus! (laughter) What is he talking about? What you mean Jesus got the blues? If you don’t think Jesus got the blues, let somebody nail your ass to a piece of wood and see how that makes you feel! That’s how I came up with that particular statement. A guy ask me, what do you mean Jesus got the blues? I said, you know Jesus became human like us. Don’t you think that hurt him, to nail something into a limb? You think it made him happy? You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. That shit hurt. If you ain’t been to the cross, you ain’t seen Jesus. They killed him, killed him. And it’s my job to talk about it. Not in a preaching, condemning kind of way; I don’t have to do it like that. That’s not the way God came to me. He didn’t come to me preachin’, cuz I wouldn’t listen to that shit no way and he knew I wouldn’t. He just met me on the side of the road- hey, I love you, let’s get on with it. 

I ain’t here to condemn I’m here to share. This is what happened to me. I met somebody and now I have a different tune. You like it, we’ll all be friends. If not, God bless you and I’ll see you. 

I'm just hoping my music will be uplifting and give people a little hope, as well as myself.

I mean, I love myself as I speak. Just by talking to you guys this morning, my own voice, my own spirit has uplifted myself, by sharing and communicating. That’s what I hope my music does. I get letters from people all over the world, places I never heard of, countries I’ve never heard of. And I don’t know how the music is getting out there, especially with the way I’ve been treated by the record companies. I’m just surprised that this music is out there in the places it’s gotten. Only God could have done that. 

David Kelly (producer-Ally McBeal TV show) called me. David Kelly heard this song “New Man in Town” off a record that didn’t even sell. Yet God put it in his hands. God was saying, use this song. People ask me all the time, how did that happen? I say, in the name of Jesus. It’s no big deal for Jesus to have David Kelly call Sam McClain. It’s so small, it’s a materialism thing we have in here… 

I say I can, they say no you can’t. I can, man, if it’s in accordance to God’s will, I can. Oh yes I can don’t tell me I can’t do this. That’s the way my whole life has been, standing on that faith. I know God has been with me all this time. I just knew that I could and I would. Never had no plans but I knew. I knew there was going to be a lady who would love me, love my music, be my partner and my friend.

I bought that tour bus out there a couple of years back. And I don’t know anybody, nobody on this earth who would have signed or helped me get that damn bus! Nobody except Jesus! Everybody’s talking to me saying, do you know what those things cost? God meant for it to happen. An artist on my level is not supposed to have a $300,000 tour bus! They ain’t paying me that much money. Like this tour I’m on right now, I’m not making money. God gave me some money to support this tour.

Thompson: I was wondering about that. You have some big gaps between dates.

McClain: Yes sir. We’re staying in this hotel for a week. I’m taking care of eleven people. This isn’t supposed to be happening. I’ve got a $300,000 bus sitting out there and a driver to boot! And you’re looking at the man that comes from eating out of garbage cans, that was told all his life that he wasn’t ever going to amount to shit! That’s why I give God the glory and I give God the grace. 

I moan, I groan why have you forsaken me? God gives us a big task the challenge of surrendering to do God’s total will. That’s what I pray for but I find it’s tougher than I want it to be. I know if I do his will, I’ll be right on if I get in sync with God’s will